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Viviane

Soren, you are the first Curator of Climate Change on this planet, or at least the only museum professional with this title: could you tell us about your job description and how it’s evolved on the ground since you started in September 2021

Soren

I can speak to the job description that I applied to. When I sent it to my references telling them that I was applying for the position, one laughed because the description was so long and full of idiosyncratic things. The ROM wanted a climate scientist who’s really good with people and who also has experience with Indigenous communities and has lived all over the world. I got the vibe that there was a very specific person that they were looking for.

I think part of that may have come through negotiations with the donor, Allan Shiff. From what I understand, a lot of work went into making sure that the position fit with the vision that he and Helaine had presented to the ROM.

Jennifer

I would like to follow up with Viviane’s question. Soren, a job description for the ROM’s newly created position of Curator of Climate Change was presented to you, but I am curious to know – now that you have been hired to this position – how you might be redefining that original job description as you are reaching out to work with colleagues across the ROM?

Soren

Well, it’s funny because on one hand, it sounded from the job description as if the hiring committee wanted a specific person, but from what I remember, it seemed in the first interviews that nobody had a clear idea of what a “curator of climate change” should be. The interviewers were curious to hear my vision on what I thought the best curator of climate change could be, and I feel I’ve been pretty true so far to that vision that I offered them. 

So I wouldn’t say there have been any substantive changes up to now because it was so open before and sensitive to what I was proposing. So far what I’ve experienced is a supportive group of people who from the executive down to curators are all really passionate about climate change and want things to happen.

Viviane 

Let’s turn to you now Sarah! Would you tell us about your first weeks on the job? And let us know how this new position builds on some of the work that you’ve done already.

Sarah 

Yeah, sure. Thank you so much! I’m the Climate Change Project Coordinator. The work entails both coming up with and implementing work plans, and doing a bit of stakeholder’s management, budgeting, and elements of grant development. These are just some of the aspects that I’ve been looking at. I started just before the holiday break. Because of the pandemic lockdown, I’ve been working from home. But so far, in the five weeks since I’ve started, we’ve had a lot of meetings. We’ve been coming up with ideas to develop the climate change program and we’ve also been looking at what other organizations are doing, and starting to work with tools to calculate our carbon footprint.

We’ve had a couple of meetings with other ROM curators to get a better sense of how to incorporate a climate change lens in understanding various exhibitions and objects in the ROM galleries. We’ve also been undertaking stakeholder mapping, to see who the key climate change stakeholders are in Toronto, Ontario, and globally, so that we know what they’re doing and what we can learn from them.

Viviane 

What training and work experience led you to this position Sarah? 

Sarah 

I have a Bachelor of Education degree. I’ve worked as a project and program coordinator with various other organizations and came to ROM because of my background in program administration. I come to climate change from an activist point of view. One of the organizations that I’ve been affiliated with here in Toronto is the Africa Climate Action Initiative (ACAI). This organization is focused on integrating in the climate change discussions, people who otherwise are left behind such as immigrants, newcomers, international students, and houseless persons. These are individuals who we also wanted to engage in climate change conversations.  Beyond Toronto, we also have other organizations in Africa that form part of the affiliations of the ACAI, which is registered under the Canada Africa Partnership Network.

The ACAI has also been conducting outreach and awareness initiatives regarding the impact of climate change in Africa. Here in Toronto, we have a project in North Etobicoke that’s been funded by the City of Toronto, through which we’re able to bring communities together for climate change conversations, and figure out how to reduce individual carbon footprints, for instance through considering transportation within the city. For example, ACAI gets bicycles repaired and distributes them for free. We do this not just for the international students or the immigrants, but also to the local residents of North Etobicoke. So we use that to address transport as one component of climate change. As part of that process, we’ve also been talking about reusing, and reducing waste through engaging residents in apartments on how to recycle and manage their waste.

Jennifer 

That’s very interesting, Sarah. You just mentioned the partnership network between Canada and Africa. Just minutes before our talk began, I received an email about another new type of position: a ‘chief heat officer’, and the recent creation of this position in Sierra Leone, Africa. There are already a few such positions in the US (in Miami and Phoenix) and Greece, in which people are tasked with protecting city residents or local residents from extreme heat. Now Freetown has become the first city in Africa to create such a position.

This brings me to an important question about the newness of your positions and your strategies for their development. I think it’s worth mentioning that there aren’t many such positions in the museum world as Viviane observed. Moreover, each position has been articulated a little bit differently. Are you planning to connect with colleagues holding similar positions (such as at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh and the Royal Saskatchewan Museum) as a network to support one another and exchange ideas, and to grow the idea of this position in other museums?

Sarah

Yeah. That’s one of the areas that we are focusing on in terms of growing networks. I also remember the first day that I sat down with Soren, I was telling him: how do we reach out to non-museum goers? At the end of the day, we want diverse people to be able to access Climate Change  information at the ROM.  

From my perspective we’re thinking about reaching out at all scales, and we’re trying to be realistic with each scale regarding what kind of partnerships would be meaningful in terms of what we can accomplish within Toronto, within the province, across provinces, and globally. On what scale do we just inspire, and on what scale might we be able to actually implement a program that’s going to reduce CO2 emissions?

Soren 

Sarah and I have both lived in various places around the world, and I think it’ll be great to build and use these networks and connections that we already have to get the best outcome at all possible scales.

Jennifer 

I really like that idea because the museum world is very like a lot of worlds, a center unto itself and has the hesitancy of stepping outside, partnering with other museums. Partnering with other kinds of organizations is also very interesting. I like that! And I’m just curious as well to know if you’re finding connections easier inside the ROM or outside the ROM.

Soren 

From my perspective, the hardest connections I think might be between major institutions in the same city, because of the potential competition in terms of who’s going to get a major art show or busload of tourists. At least, there’s maybe a little bit more hesitancy to partner locally with other museums, I think, versus reaching out to a museum in Berlin and saying, “Oh yeah, let’s partner with them” because we’re not in competition and there’s no audience overlap.

Regarding connections within the ROM, given that this climate change program is new, there’s an element where people are having to make space for us. And I think these adjustments are always somewhat challenging, even just negotiating the physical space and determining who has to move to make space for our offices.

At least there seems to be no preconceived expectation within the ROM of us being good or bad. People seem genuinely excited that it’s happening, and they understand that it’s a new thing. And there’s a lot of openness that comes with that. 

Marie-Claude

And how have you been navigating being new in that role, having to create these bridges in the museum world . . .  In a museum, everyone’s a specialist, so I’m wondering how you’re getting to know people and spreading your vision to others in the organization?

Soren

By trying to be very nice [laughs]. By trying to make friends and not step on people’s toes and respect their expertise and learn as much as I can from them. People were kind of joking when I arrived that I’m the first curator without a collection. But the flip side of that is that all the collections in the ROM are in some ways ours to reinterpret from a climate standpoint, be it a social justice or natural history one.

If I’m going to bring in, say, a sustainable textile object, I would do that in collaboration with the curators responsible for textiles. And so, there’s a lot of partnerships and making friends and trying to also make sure that I don’t misinterpret someone’s curated objects. I’m just keeping these conversations fluid and meeting with all the curators as much as I can to maintain good relationships. And I genuinely love all the curators I’ve met here so far, so that makes it easy.

Jennifer 

We have been speaking in our Coalition meetings about the need for resources within the larger museum community as means for implementing eco-responsible practices. At the ROM, are you finding that there is much of a need for introducing training sessions or more information and resources about eco-responsible practices and how to implement these in the here and now?

Soren 

I would say we’re in the midst of assessing that need. For instance, I’ve been concerned that if we have a climate change tour provided by museum volunteers, are they comfortable receiving questions from the public about climate change? The message I’m getting from them so far is that they’re already comfortable dealing with questions that require the expertise of the curator to answer, saying something like “Here’s how you can bring this to the curator if you have a specific question about climate change.”

Whether that’s still going to be the situation once we start these kinds of programs, or whether they’ll face people coming in with aggressive attitudes is difficult to say right now. But we’re definitely looking into opportunities for how we can provide training and teaching for ROM staff and curators and volunteers and people who might be working more closely with the public to make them feel prepared. There’s of course questions of onboarding as well, and sustainability practices within the museum. We haven’t had too many of those conversations yet, but they will be happening soon.

Sarah 

To add to that, I’ll just mention that already there were some best practices that have been undertaken by the ROM, including its Green Team. It has been at the forefront of examining ROM operations, including waste disposal. And so yes, staff are already aware of these issues, and there are several initiatives here and there already underway.

Viviane 

Sarah and Soren, thank you! Your turn: any burning questions you have for us?

Soren 

I do have a question. Because you were also bringing up the original job call going out for my position in 2020, I’m curious to hear if any of you, from a personal standpoint or through the lens of the Coalition of Museums for Climate Justice, had preconceived ideas regarding what you were hoping would come from this position? 

Jennifer 

Well, given that this type of position (a climate curator) and others that are focused on sustainable museographical practices (such as sustainability manager) have been a long time in coming, and that there are so few examples of their kind in the world today (we alluded previously to the position held by Nicole Heller, the first Curator of the Anthropocene at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh; there is also the position of sustainability manager at the Tate and Victoria and Albert Museum in London, and in museums in France as well, and the curator of human ecology at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum), I would certainly hope that the creation of this new position at the ROM will stimulate other museums to begin thinking about the urgent need to rethink the foundations of museographical practices and to recognize the potential for climate leadership.

I also believe that we need to be creative, and imaginative, and that we need to collectively reimagine the very role of the curator and the work of museums through a climate lens. And that we need to do this across the museum field. I love the ideas that I’ve been hearing you talk about in our brief discussion so far. And I think it’s just a question of adding and adding and adding different ideas across different museums and inspiring one another and supporting one another as well, so that ‘climate curator’ becomes the norm and not the exception. Not normative, but the norm.

Marie-Claude 

Yeah. I don’t think we [CMCJ] had any in-depth discussions about what the curator of climate change would do. We’re just really excited that there is one at the ROM, really! The way I initially saw it is that a sustainability manager would have more interdepartmental weight because she/he/they can have that overview whereas a curator might have specific job expectations but the way you describe your reach now, makes it more interesting. But I think it’s terrific that you have the position and I think it’s great that the ROM also created a position like Sarah’s that reasserts the need for breadth and depth of your respective work. And you do need that coordination and to have a very strong case for what you’re going to be building. 

I’m currently enrolled in two graduates’ degrees in sustainability that are focusing on developing sustainability officers and managers. One of the things that they teach us about is change management. How do you bring about something really big? How do you get people to buy in? How do you create the sense of urgency around this change? And it’s such a key element. I hadn’t really thought about it until now. That’s why nothing major was happening at the National Gallery of Canada (where I was working until 2021): there was no sense of urgency. It wasn’t coming from the senior managers. It wasn’t coming (yet) from Mother Nature, as well. We weren’t in any direct peril. Climate change didn’t seem to be on the risk radar of the leadership team. Seems like you have some wiggle room at the ROM; there are things you can do within the scope of your work while you collaborate with your curatorial peers and the Green Team. That’s so great! 

I love that you’ve been reaching out to so many people to get inspired from what they’re doing. You’re doing the right thing. You get that external support to bring ideas back to the museum and say: “Hey, this is important!” And really, many museums are further behind than other types of organizations. For example, corporations already have sustainable managers. 

So you are not only the climate change curator; you are that person who will be fueling the very first phase of what a museum could see itself doing in terms of climate adaptation and mitigation work; that’s innovative! So much hope with so much responsibility!  I’m glad that you are joined by Sarah with whom you can develop ideas. She brings with her an important perspective and experience from her activism work. Together you have a winning chance. We’re rooting for both of you!

Viviane 

Wow – this is great! Not to put more pressure on your collective shoulders, Sarah and Soren, but going back to your question about expectations for this new curatorial position, I was hoping for an open-ended job description where you wouldn’t be spending all your time studying climate change. What is needed are new museum positions dedicated to finding ways to integrate a climate crisis lens in everything we do in the museum and beyond to change the way people treat the planet.

It’s becoming more obvious that we need to work with people and organizations invested in understanding how systemic changes take place, right? How do we, for instance, curb our collective appetite for consumption? Over-consumption of “stuff” is the main source of massive waste and carbon emissions. We saw in the early phases of the pandemic that the production and consumption of goods slowed down dramatically but it picked up a few weeks later. Green industries are not necessarily invested in decreasing our consumption either. 

I think it is so critical for museum professionals to understand that museums are cultural influencers, that is, we can effect change. Museums tend to solidify and normalize cultural values. The big question is: how can we participate in normalizing values that reconnect us with the natural world and don’t equate mass consumption with well-being?  

Soren

It’s great to hear all of these things. There’s a report, Marie-Claude, that you sent me not long ago, saying that one of the criticisms that museums face when they do climate change programming is that people might claim that it’s outside of the professional expertise of the museum. People want a paleontologist to show the dinosaur bones and an art historian to show art history.  

When I read that, it struck me how important it is to have a curator of climate change who is coming to climate change as a scientist who studies it. And that’s really a new thing, and as you were saying, Viviane, it lets us reposition that conversation and maybe find ways to get past the inertia and have new conversations that people may not have been used to having in a museum before. I’m all for trying to think about how to create new conversations about where we need to get to and how we’re going to get there, and get people excited about that. And find ways to use the museum to show people what’s happening already, here and now. Since the ROM is also a research institute, I can also continue doing climate change research, but that wouldn’t necessarily be the case for other potential curators of climate change in other institutions.      

Jennifer

I have a question for you both, Sarah and Soren. Would you share with us a museological initiative that you’ve seen somewhere, it could be at the ROM or it could be anywhere in the world, that was of inspiration to you, and that might be interesting going forward in your roles at the ROM?

Soren

For me, I would say Miranda Massie’s Climate Change Museum in New York was a big inspiration, even just from the get-go of writing up my application for this job. It’s maybe a funny example to draw on since they’re basically an office in a building, but they’re doing incredible stuff all around the city and reaching tons of people. It’s as if the whole city of New York is their museum and their space to have art installations.     

Jennifer

I think that’s a really important aspect of the success of their work. The fact that the Climate Museum in NYC is not constrained to a bricks-and-mortar building is liberating. This is often where I have seen some of the most innovative museological work. When a museum can think beyond its literal or metaphoric walls and enact programming around a city, as you’ve described, when it can make the city their home, it can be a really effective force.

Soren

Yeah. And not being necessarily expected to have a collection and gallery space here at the ROM, I’ve      been thinking about that aspect of it as well. Of course it opens up new kinds of economic and budgetary considerations, if you’re not bringing people into a physical space to see something, but that’s definitely something we’re thinking about and we’ve been discussing here.

Marie-Claude 

I’m also interested to know: how does the question of climate change at the ROM interact with other major components of sustainable development, including decolonization, social justice, and relationships with Indigenous communities, as well as underrepresented communities. A lot of people don’t understand the link between all of them, but these spheres of activity are also contained within the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals. 

Soren 

I’ve made it clear even from the interview stage here that it’s extremely important to me to have Indigenous involvement in climate change programs. We want to engage all communities, but particularly Indigenous ones. For one, there is a major climate justice element to it, given the disproportionate effect of climate change on Indigenous communities.

But also, there is a whole body of knowledge relating to Indigenous strategies of climate adaptation and mitigation. I think non-Indigenous Canadians can learn a lot from those communities and community members who are comfortable with sharing this knowledge and expertise.      

Toronto has one of the largest indigenous populations of any North American city. It’s the perfect place to build these bridges. There’s a huge amount of Indigenous expertise here, but it’s hard to say right now exactly what shape it’s going to be taking, because we don’t want to dictate the terms of that relationship either.  

Sarah 

One of the museums that really struck me with the Climate Change Initiative was the American Museum of Natural History in New York, and the Jockey Club Museum of Climate Change in Hong Kong. What struck me so much about the American Museum of Natural History is all climate change programming that they’re doing for kids. Children and youth are the people who are going to drive and initiate change. This is where my passion is, especially just making sure that they are integrated, that we start giving them the right information from the start. 

The Jockey Club Museum of Climate Change also has very good programs for kids that are more digital focused. There are various digital programs, including 3D programs and computer games, that are able to engage both kids and their families. 

Regarding incorporating Indigenous ways of knowledge, I think Soren has already answered that. We are engaging with Indigenous individuals and communities right from the planning stage. And we want to work with them as we proceed. We’ve already started having these conversations. We still engage as many groups as possible, because we want to not only hear the academic and the scientific aspects of their work, but also the traditional aspects in terms of how Indigenous communities have been mitigating and adapting to climate change.